tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post3981257253983101365..comments2023-08-10T05:24:20.775-04:00Comments on Razing the Bar: Signposts Along the RoadAndy Whitmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-37747260564746913762007-03-16T16:49:00.000-04:002007-03-16T16:49:00.000-04:00Andy,Thanks for your response. You're right that t...Andy,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your response. You're right that there are two sides to the story. The Church is both ark of salvation and refuge of sinners, and all too often the former is obscured by the latter. But it seems the former is often neglected or denied, maybe especially by unregenerated bohos, which is too bad, since remembering it would be part of the remedy.<BR/><BR/>I'm flattered and a little surprised to hear that you remember me from r.m.c. so many years ago. I, of course, remember you as well, but that's probably obvious from my being here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-31738392235116966462007-03-15T18:31:00.000-04:002007-03-15T18:31:00.000-04:00Hi, Craig. It's good to find you here. I remember...Hi, Craig. It's good to find you here. I remember you from my rec.music.christian days, which was a long time ago. <BR/><BR/>I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I'm also sympathetic to the views that Rickie Lee Jones expresses in that song. The Church is an indispensable part of the Christian life. And it's also part of the problem. <BR/><BR/>Of course, much of that is because unregenerated bohos like me are in it, and I'm not being ironic. I am part of the problem. But surely you can appreciate what a poor advertisement Christians often are for Christianity. So Rickie Lee sees hypocrisy. Me too. And I sometimes see it in my own life, and I'm not proud of that. But I don't mind her pointing it out, or mind her focusing on Jesus rather than an institution, musty or not. I'm trying to do the same.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-26687479761328924702007-03-15T17:30:00.000-04:002007-03-15T17:30:00.000-04:00Unregenerated boho is right.Praying in your closet...Unregenerated boho is right.<BR/><BR/>Praying in your closet is a good thing, of course, as is gratitude, and I admire the general drift of Rickie Lee Jones' song. But the fact that she can't write the song without taking cheap-shots at churches and the people in them is a defect. For the record, we're not on parade and we don't think we're better than others; we're there because we know we're not.<BR/><BR/>And your "years of musty tradition and ceremony" is probably just a rhetorical flourish, but an odd one. The idea that you can recover Christianity by stripping off the tradition is like trying to dig up a tree to find the seed. The seed ain't there - or, rather, the seed is the tree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-51742851517209832792007-03-14T09:58:00.000-04:002007-03-14T09:58:00.000-04:00Andy-Don't worry, I am generally the first one to ...Andy-<BR/><BR/>Don't worry, I am generally the first one to sprint from anything that smells like CCM-related material. Just as I have no difficulty substituting venues for church. Okay, as long as its not Bogarts in Cincy, lol. <BR/><BR/>ScottAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-47808931281858711412007-03-14T06:58:00.000-04:002007-03-14T06:58:00.000-04:00Scott, yes I'm familiar with Tooth and Nail. Ther...Scott, yes I'm familiar with Tooth and Nail. There are talented people there, just as there are talented people throughout CCM. My only point here is that the Christian worldview encompasses all of life, and not merely the fairly narrow focus of what historically constitutes CCM. If coffee houses aren't your thing, then substitute any venue of your choice that doesn't mean "church."Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-67510784849146137552007-03-13T21:10:00.000-04:002007-03-13T21:10:00.000-04:00Andy-I am not a big fan of coffeehouses and the ge...Andy-<BR/>I am not a big fan of coffeehouses and the general pretense that surrounds them and often the people inside, though...some are okay. I was wondering...since this is something that came up some in my college days, if you had any opinion on Tooth and Nail and labels such as that. Labels...that obviously get a lot bank from Christian tweens, teens and 20 somethings...that also have a fair amount of support from the non-christian community (as long as its not fat mike, lol)...and bands do not have to "christian" or christians to sign. Just wondered what your take on that might be...if you know of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-63218856748669218272007-03-13T18:50:00.000-04:002007-03-13T18:50:00.000-04:00Scott, as St. Izzy said, there are record labels o...Scott, as St. Izzy said, there are record labels out there that cater exclusively to a Christian audience. This is music written by Christians for Christians, and its scope is usually fairly narrowly defined as having explicit Christian content, Scriptural references, "wholesome" messages, etc. Word and Myrrh are two of the largest CCM labels. There are dozens of others, usually catering to niche markets within the larger Christian music world (Christian punk, Christian rap, etc.).<BR/><BR/>As is I'm sure quite obvious, I am not a fan of this music, although I am a fan of quite a few Christians who make music. It's a big ol' complex world out there, and I appreciate musicians who bring their Christian worldview to bear on all kinds of topics and issues. <BR/><BR/>St. Izzy is right that there is a blurred line between CCM and "Jesus music." The original practitioners of this music, which dates from the Jesus movement of the late 1960s, weren't part of any industry research or demographic trends. They were making music because they loved Jesus and wanted to tell the world about him. And no doubt there are people in the CCM industry who are operating from the same perspective. But at some point the Jesus music grew up and became a big business, and became far more conservative in terms of acceptable subject matter and tone. <BR/><BR/>It's difficult to draw exact lines, but I know what CCM is not. Larry Norman, one of those Jesus Music pioneers, sang in 1972, "You say all men are equal/All men are brothers/Then why are the rich more equal than others?" CCM label heads would go into convulsions if any of their artists delivered that kind of social commentary today. Somehow, somewhere probably in the mid-to-late seventies, the music was transformed from its genuinely radical, countercultural roots into the soundtrack for Red Staters who vote solely on a candidate's stance on abortion and gun control and prayer in school. <BR/><BR/>I actually kinda miss Jesus music. I don't miss CCM at all. And I love it when Christian musicians do an end run around the whole monolithic structure and just head for the bars and coffee shops, which is where good musicians of all theological and philosophical stripes belong.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-66473210502296339742007-03-13T17:15:00.000-04:002007-03-13T17:15:00.000-04:001) It's going to be difficult to rush out and get...1) It's going to be difficult to rush out and get a copy of the box set. It's all gone. No more.<BR/><BR/>I listened to some clips and wanted to hear more (they reminded me in a way of the most musical of the All Saved Freak Band's albums, <I>For Christians, Elves, and Lovers</I>), but the Trees Community, the distributor, everyone is out of stock, and they say the boxed set won't be reprinted. The one album is set for re-release, but that's it.<BR/><BR/>2) As a one useful determiner for CCM, I look at label. CCM is usually put out by labels that identify themselves as "Christian" and that will put out nothing that is not explicitly Xn.<BR/><BR/>What I have more trouble with is the line between Jesus Music and CCM.St. Izzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14491461444116895539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-54454401926190293712007-03-13T16:20:00.000-04:002007-03-13T16:20:00.000-04:00andy,Can we put a definition on contemporary chris...andy,<BR/><BR/>Can we put a definition on contemporary christian music? Just wondered if you thought that this covered bands with all "christian" members singer predominately "christian" lyrics...or does this also extend to bands with all members being christians or some who do not sing what are definitively christian lyrics?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-46365963698006653242007-03-13T08:26:00.000-04:002007-03-13T08:26:00.000-04:00It's certainly ambitious (a trait I wouldn't norma...It's certainly ambitious (a trait I wouldn't normally associate with music that came out of the Jesus movement). I do find it beautiful, albeit a bit challenging. And, because the lyrics are mostly derived directly from Scripture, I find it far more aesthetically pleasing than the didactic sermons that characterized much of the early Jesus music and the "Is it Jesus or your girlfriend?" coyness that characterizes a lot of the fuzzy sentiments I hear in current Christian music. <BR/><BR/>But, different strokes ... and jots, and tittles. My history is wrapped up in the Jesus movement, but I really don't miss those days. For me, one of the things I appreciate about The Trees Community is that, in spite of their cringe-worthy name, they made music that transcended their trippy era. Maybe how we hear this music depends on the individual histories we bring to it. You said you "grew up in the aftermath of the Jesus movement." That's a phrase I usually associate with natural disasters like Hurricane Katrina. It wasn't a natural (or supernatural) disaster for me, so I may be more positively disposed to the sentiments than you.<BR/><BR/>AndyAndy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-80982176105940386572007-03-12T21:39:00.000-04:002007-03-12T21:39:00.000-04:00oh, i don't know, andy. i found "trees community" ...oh, i don't know, andy. i found "trees community" utterly unlistenable. its ambitious, but i grew up in the aftermath of the jesus movement, and TC is reminiscent of a lot of the worst of that time and those impulses, for me.<BR/><BR/>this is another one of those "your subjective opinion is worse than my sublime subjective opinion" moments. i'm really glad you find transcendence in those songs.<BR/><BR/>and i know you generally make good recommendations, and i've had the new ricki lee jones album on my radar. i'll have to check it out.Zena and Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05257636572578928872noreply@blogger.com