tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post1365691395237725599..comments2023-08-10T05:24:20.775-04:00Comments on Razing the Bar: In Defense of RelevanceAndy Whitmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-87615585156468345602007-04-12T17:24:00.000-04:002007-04-12T17:24:00.000-04:00yeah, you got me, andy. your thoughts are challeng...yeah, you got me, andy. your thoughts are challenging. i gotta chew on it!ryan lotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750380382013288173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-58683745609814110412007-04-11T21:19:00.000-04:002007-04-11T21:19:00.000-04:00Ryan wrote:"the irony of it is that the pursuit of...Ryan wrote:<BR/><BR/>"the irony of it is that the pursuit of relevance always seems to result in a strained, seemingly disingenuous integration of outward expressions. a sub-culture that merely dresses up in the garments of the greater culture of which it is part, runs the risk of muting its own particular cultural contribution. and a subculture that has nothing to bring to the table of itself is an irrelevant player. thus, sufjan's statement."<BR/><BR/>I don't think the "disingenuous integration of outward expressions" that you fear is inevitable, although I'd certainly agree with you that "relevant" often seems forced and contrived. <BR/><BR/>So let's make it unforced and non-contrived. Let's have it be a natural extension of our lives. <BR/><BR/>Jesus used farming parables to speak to an agrarian society. When visiting Athens, the apostle Paul quoted an Athenian poet. This was not forced or contrived "relevance", but in both cases these examples spoke to the prevailing cultures. And that's all I'm suggesting. <BR/><BR/>Indeed, I am fairly convinced that the apostle Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 9 cannot be understood apart from the notion of "relevance." Those words are:<BR/><BR/>"Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." (1 Corinthians 9:19-23).<BR/><BR/>That sounds a lot like accommodating oneself to the surrounding culture to me. <BR/><BR/>And that's continued throughout Church history, from the ecclesiastical decision on the date on which Christians celebrate Christmas to the increasing importance given Mary the mother of Jesus in light of the surrounding pagan fertility religions, right on up through the "demonic" practice of incorporating secular music into the worship service. I'm referring here to Martin Luther, of course. Let's not even talk about the scandal of electric guitars. :-)<BR/><BR/>So I'd argue that the quest for relevance is everywhere. It cannot be avoided. It comes from interacting with other human beings, inside and outside the Church. And although it can be and certainly has been misused, the concept of "relevance" is not inherently evil. It is, in fact, inherently necessary to good relationships. <BR/><BR/>By the way, Ryan, I didn't see Rob after we talked at the conference, so I don't have your CD. But I'd love to hear it. Send me an email message at whitmana (at) hotmail (dot) com, and I'll reply with my snail mail address.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-46374841614907327632007-04-11T18:35:00.000-04:002007-04-11T18:35:00.000-04:00Leif makes a good point regarding "I AM RELEVANT",...Leif makes a good point regarding "I AM RELEVANT", which was also on a t-shirt. It's a sly little pun and a direct attempt at making brand identification very personal. <BR/><BR/>or consider the following creed printed in 2005 on the magazine's "Last Word" page.<BR/><BR/>We Break Stereotypes<BR/>We Challenge Status Quo<BR/>We Enact Change<BR/>We Seek God<BR/>We Live Life<BR/>We Impact The World<BR/>I Break Stereotypes<BR/>I Challenge Status Quo<BR/>I Enact Change<BR/>I Seek God<BR/>I Live Life<BR/>I Impact The World<BR/><BR/>The message here doesn't seem to be that God is relevant, as Cameron claims.Holy Moly!https://www.blogger.com/profile/16458481024940920005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-30950524576445473462007-04-11T17:23:00.000-04:002007-04-11T17:23:00.000-04:00andy, sufjan's point in saying that "a magazine ca...andy, <BR/>sufjan's point in saying that "a magazine called 'Relevant' is inherently irrelevant by virtue of its self-consciousness," is perhaps this: the strongest (if often quietest) voices that reshape and define culture are those that are counter-cultural. it is not the pursuit of relevance that makes those voices audible, but rather their ability to communicate a transcendent truth from without, rather than from within (a point sufjan touched on in response to a personal question about the "purpose" of his music).<BR/><BR/>the irony of it is that the pursuit of relevance always seems to result in a strained, seemingly disingenuous integration of outward expressions. a sub-culture that merely dresses up in the garments of the greater culture of which it is part, runs the risk of muting its own particular cultural contribution. and a subculture that has nothing to bring to the table of itself is an irrelevant player. thus, sufjan's statement.<BR/><BR/>but the pursuit of <I>honesty</I> is never out of fashion. so, as a creator, i don't think so much of relevance as <I>honesty</I>. after all, relevance is entirely subjective. i have plenty inside of me that's not worth exporting to the outside world. but what is of worth is at least going to stem from genuine personal experience. this is what i have to bring to the table, what is relevant. so when we all sit and eat together, somebody brings the bread and somebody else brings the wine. not as fun with too much bread and no wine.ryan lotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750380382013288173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-33812852348173645672007-04-11T13:02:00.000-04:002007-04-11T13:02:00.000-04:00One thing I'd like to throw in here is that Camero...One thing I'd like to throw in here is that Cameron Strang has clarified on a number of occassions that the magazine's name is referring to that belief that God is always "relevant," which (I believe) is a response to the common idea that God has nothing to do with the 21st Century. While the Bible and the life of Christ may feel distant and "irrelevant" to our daily lives, God is still very much "relevant." Cameron claims that the name has nothing to do with claiming that <I>we/they/whomever</I> are "relevant."<BR/><BR/>I can really get behind this idea, and I think it's a valid point. However, the company used to give out stickers that read "I AM RELEVANT." They've also published books called <I>I Am Relevant</I>, <I>The Journey Towards Relevance</I> and <I>The Relevant Nation</I>.<BR/><BR/>I'd love to believe that the name is about proclaiming that God still matters. Unfortunately, the facts don't seem to support that.Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01309313510939066692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-35683881809938079592007-04-10T19:55:00.000-04:002007-04-10T19:55:00.000-04:00interesting post. great discussion, thank you all....interesting post. great discussion, thank you all. <BR/><BR/>i think we've clearly identified the tension in which the church lives. as i read somewhere, "in the world, but not of the world." <BR/><BR/>linking these two sides of the spectrum is our confession about the First Article of the Apostles Creed. God has created us, made us his creatures, and placed us in the world he created. we can't not interact with, and embody the world in which we live, the world in which He still works and sustains.<BR/><BR/>as we live in this world, let's simply keep doing what he has put us here to do, serve our neighbor in the vocations God has given us.natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06186832488344859995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-80009100980883089062007-04-09T11:43:00.000-04:002007-04-09T11:43:00.000-04:00Dean, I would argue that there's a difference betw...Dean, I would argue that there's a difference between being "relevant" and "hip." A focus on being "hip" is always misguided and is, frankly, irrelevant to the Christian faith. But one can be relevant merely by being culturally aware, and by exhibiting those qualities -- generosity, hospitality, and love -- that help to make that cultural awareness winsome. <BR/><BR/>Is it more important to be generous, hospitable and loving than to be culturally aware? Sure it is. Without those things any cultural engagement, or any lack of cultural engagement, is irrelevant at best, and deeply offensive at worst. But this isn't a zero-sum game. It's possible to be generous, loving, and culturally aware. The sad fact is that the Amish, regardless of their other virtues, have no impact on our culture unless or until something like a great tragedy unwittingly brings them into our consciousness. Did they respond well to a great tragedy. Yes, they did. But I'm not really a fan of the Amish model of Christianity, precisely because it takes a separatist approach to the faith. I think it's better to be culturally engaged. One can do that without resorting to the pathetic attempts at "hipness" that mar some parts of the contemporary Church.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-43780760419129528812007-04-09T10:38:00.000-04:002007-04-09T10:38:00.000-04:00Andy,The problem with all the "relevance" talk, it...Andy,<BR/><BR/>The problem with all the "relevance" talk, it seems to me, is that it assumes churches must be like the culture, at least in exteriors, to be accesible to the culture.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that's true. If the church simply lives out its calling to hospitality, generosity, and love, she would find these things are ALWAYS relevant because they lie at the bottom of the longing human heart. Trying to make your worship service hip is a pretty lame project when it requires neglecting eternal virtues Christians are called to practice.<BR/><BR/>A year ago, when those Amish girls were murdered in Pennsylvania, the whole world was stunned by the magnanimity the Amish showed to the murder's family. The love of the Amish witnessed to the truth of the gospel in a way all the gadget-enhanced worship fads of recent decades do not. In that instance at least, America's least hip people were, for the moment, its most relevant Christians.<BR/><BR/>www.deanabbott.typepad.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-41678299286453179922007-04-06T19:16:00.000-04:002007-04-06T19:16:00.000-04:00Ah, I do see what you mean about that attempt at l...Ah, I do see what you mean about that attempt at levity being interpreted as a cheap shot given the context of a largely critical study. I guess my thought process was that anyone who puts on a cheerleader outfit today probably has a good sense of humor about it- as Sufjan could tell you, cheerleading is inherently funny. Plus it was the first thing that came up when I googled "maya strang"<BR/><BR/>But yeah, it does seem a little mean now. As penance, I pledge to provide Mrs. Strang and Relevant Media Group with the most embarassing photo of myself I can find and release it to them for whatever purposes they deem suitable. I am completely serious.Holy Moly!https://www.blogger.com/profile/16458481024940920005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-67464407499182721152007-04-06T14:56:00.000-04:002007-04-06T14:56:00.000-04:00For what it's worth, I think Joel has a good point...For what it's worth, I think Joel has a good point, Kevin. Your questions about Maya Strang and her role at Relevant are valid ones, but in my opinion your argument suffers because of the perceived cheap shot at her by portraying her in a cheerleading uniform. Surely there are pictures of Maya where she doesn't come across as a Bimbo for Christ. If there are, I'd suggest using them in future presentations.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-68937116058222622212007-04-06T14:45:00.000-04:002007-04-06T14:45:00.000-04:00Kevin,Fair enough, thanks for responding. It could...Kevin,<BR/>Fair enough, thanks for responding. It could be I was listening too cynically, but perhaps the criticism was more implied in the references to her cheerleading and the photo used in the presentation. I did find your analysis intriguing.bAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-22384560572325661642007-04-05T20:50:00.000-04:002007-04-05T20:50:00.000-04:00Hey Joel, I think I should defend myself just a bi...Hey Joel, I think I should defend myself just a bit. I'll plead guilty to a bit of snarkiness, but my workshop didn't criticize Maya Strang, who I have not met, but is, by all accounts, a really nice lady. She's not just the editor's wife, but the company's operations manager, and I think an examination of her theological convictions is fair game. I did reveal my findings about her ascribing to charismatic beliefs about Satanic influence, and the faith healing and prophecy that happens in her church, projected that her husband likely shares these sort of theological convictions, and noted that such perspectives are entirely absent from the magazine. I then advanced some theories about the possible reasons why.Holy Moly!https://www.blogger.com/profile/16458481024940920005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-26536186490587526322007-04-05T18:59:00.000-04:002007-04-05T18:59:00.000-04:00Funny...that Sufjan had a front-page feature in Re...Funny...that Sufjan had a front-page feature in Relevant last year I believe. Obviously, there is no good definiton of relevance. I would say it's more about being who you are (and not trying to be something your not)...perhaps. I will say, starting over at 31 makes you wonder how revelant you are. I feel like I have the mind of a 20 year-old but the body of...well...something much older. I like what I like. And plenty of that is uncool...as most people will tell you that it is not "cool" to like most punk or metal after the age of 25 (and that may be generous)...we are supposed to move on to liking only indie-pop or jazz. But I say screw that. I may be getting gray hair and odd looks from teenagers as I drive up beside them with music blaring, but isn't that part of the fun? <BR/>As for Relevant..I find it to occasionally be a decent read, but a lot of it offends me, by implying that this crap is supposed to whats cool and that by liking it you are indeed, relevant. Whatever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-26385770505246337312007-04-05T16:50:00.001-04:002007-04-05T16:50:00.001-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-75617857076893670062007-04-05T16:50:00.000-04:002007-04-05T16:50:00.000-04:00Regarding Kevin's "workshop" in Grand Rapids: Whil...Regarding Kevin's "workshop" in Grand Rapids: While the magazine does seem to have quite a few faults, the overly snarky dismantling of the publication seemed a bit much. The criticism of the editor's wife was the low point, in my opinion. I think a more gracious treatment would have been more helpful.<BR/><BR/>I agree with your thoughts on "connection," too. The fact that many evangelical churches have become consumerist does not negate the duty of the church to be engaged with the culture. How can a monastic community fulfill the Great Commission? And, as you said, we're in the culture no matter what. The question is not whether we interact, but how we interact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-38628154570058445552007-04-05T15:34:00.000-04:002007-04-05T15:34:00.000-04:00Elizabeth, yes, you've got it. Let's be relevant,...Elizabeth, yes, you've got it. Let's be relevant, but let's ditch the "relevant" label, and, to a large extent, the whole focus on relevance. It's the wrong focus.<BR/><BR/>John, I agree that "relevant" often has superficial and silly meanings. I also agree that "relevance" and "holiness" are certainly not opposite ends of a spectrum. I would like to suggest, though, that "holiness" had better incorporate "relevance" (in the non-silly sense of simply being able to relate to the people around you), and that holiness without relevance looks a like the life of a hermit. It's probably worthwhile for the hermit, but not for anybody else.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-4872039598942231552007-04-05T15:24:00.000-04:002007-04-05T15:24:00.000-04:00Interesting conversation. I'm not sure I have an a...Interesting conversation. I'm not sure I have an answer for your questions, but the discussion is one that interests me.<BR/><BR/>I DO think that being relevant is much better than being IRrelevant, but I'm not sure our choice is between the two.<BR/><BR/>My problem with 'relevance' as I've (sometimes) seen it is that it's often a pathetic, hollow-ringing surface treatment, like a youth pastor growing a goatee or an anti-immigrant politician speaking a little espaƱol to try to come across as hip or de la gente.<BR/><BR/>Do I think you're relevant? Yes. And you would cease being so if you tried to act, dress and talk like a 19 year old, because it's not authentic, it's not a true expression of your own cultural context and life stage/life experience.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, I once spoke at a conference, where I was given the topic, "How to be relevant while still maintaining your holiness." I started my talk by saying that I think the title is silly and even a little dangerous if it reflects a belief that holiness and relevance are on two opposite ends of a spectrum, and that we need to find some balance between the two.<BR/><BR/>It's this framework wherein we urge people to be relevant BUT holy, or relevant BUT Christian that proves that we've already lost the battle to be truly either.<BR/><BR/>Or something like that.John McCollumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14757876504958350010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-62715419674783998002007-04-05T14:56:00.000-04:002007-04-05T14:56:00.000-04:00interesting post andy. i think you are right on t...interesting post andy. i think you are right on that any side that is really taking sides on this sort of thing... doesn't make sense. (i think that is what you are saying?) Really I think we need to be who God made us to be (as cliche as that sounds) and obviously some culture will be reflected into that. The point is being relevant naturally to those whom God has given us to minister to. But I think that is kinda the point you are making? maybe.<BR/>let's just ditch the world relevant :)mommy zabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10867526867356840793noreply@blogger.com