tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post115815481798852212..comments2023-08-10T05:24:20.775-04:00Comments on Razing the Bar: Blues for JesusAndy Whitmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1159639046112765242006-09-30T13:57:00.000-04:002006-09-30T13:57:00.000-04:00Thanks for the great read, guys, about Lang's reco...Thanks for the great read, guys, about Lang's record and "Christian" music criticism. This site does not indicate the exact dates of posted comments (are you able to fix this, Andy?), so I don't know if this thread has now been completely exhausted, but I expect this issue will come up again and again at this site in later discussions.<BR/><BR/>I am also a fan of artists who happen to have a more Christian worldview, such as T Bone Burnett, Sam Phillips, Cockburn, Over the Rhine, VOL/Bill Mallonee, Innocence Mission, but I will always be uncomfortable with those who identify themselves as "Christian artists" because to me there is usually one agenda in mind for these artists, and that is Christian ministry (spreading the gospel, etc...) which, to me, compromises their artistic integrity (or at least makes them a little too "one note" for me).<BR/><BR/>From Moring's list of "Christian" artists, I would have to say that Carolyn Arends is underwhelming. I find her music too "CCM". Certainly, she would not fit in with the above list of artists at a music festival, as I discovered at one of these events. I also think her moment in the sun has passed.<BR/><BR/>With regard to Johnny Lang, what about the obsession with lauding WHITE blues artists, while African-American talents are barely noticed? The problem seems to be more race-based than Christian versus non-Christian. Lang was a curiosity because he was an upstart white, 15 year old who sounded much older, but, really, the music, even then, wasn't that remarkable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1159058333197642582006-09-23T20:38:00.000-04:002006-09-23T20:38:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158444868280413752006-09-16T18:14:00.000-04:002006-09-16T18:14:00.000-04:00I agree with Andy: Lang is not the whipping boy he...I agree with Andy: Lang is not the whipping boy here. It's just that his album -- and, to a degree, his conversion -- has sparked this conversation. I don't think anything has been posted here that I would mind Lang reading.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if Andy or Jeffrey has heard the album. I have heard it, and I like it . . . but I'm not a music critic. I'm the editor of a publication, and I hire good critics -- including Jeffrey, who is one of our regular writers at Christianity Today Movies. I think Jeffrey is one of the best critics in the business. And though I'm not as familiar with Andy's work, Jeffrey tells me that Andy is one of the best too -- and if Jeffrey says so, that's good enough for me.<BR/><BR/>The three of us -- Andy, Jeffrey and I -- are really on the same page on 99% of the big issues here.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate what Andy said a couple posts ago when he said he's read some stuff on Christian music *sites,* and adding, "I won't say press." Amen to that. And that's a big part of this discussion, I think. A Christian music *site* is not necessarily the Christian music *press.* There are plenty of sites out there -- Christian *and* secular -- who pretend to write legit reviews. There's no reason for any of us to be bothered by what Joe Shmoe blogger says on his fanboy site. Let's try to keep the criticisms to legitimate Christian press.<BR/><BR/>Andy makes some good points about lyrics: Just because God did something powerful in Lang's life and he's now writing about it does NOT make it a great lyric -- but as Andy noted, some folks (some of them merely "sites," and perhaps some are "press") are singling out those lyrics as especially powerful. I agree with Andy: Perhaps Lang's conversion *experience* was powerful for him, but that doesn't necessarily make the lyrics powerful. Amen to that.<BR/><BR/>Andy also wrote, "I am not particularly interested in music with a message, usually because the message overwhelms the art, and frequently transforms itself into propaganda, which is the antithesis of art."<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure I know what you're saying, because I've seen plenty of examples of that, in mainstream and in Christian music (the praise-and-worship movement, anyone?). But I wouldn't go so far as to say, "I am not particularly interested in music with a message." Depending on how we define "message," one could argue that MOST music has a message.<BR/><BR/>First, let's remember that it was just one particular reviewer who said Lang's new album packed a "message." That was the reviewer's opinion, but it doesn't mean the reviewer was *right,* or even that that was Lang's intent.<BR/><BR/>But anyway, back to the definition of "message." If by that we mean, "I, the artist, am writing a song with an agenda, with the intent of changing you, the listener," then I agree, that *can* be problematic. However, if by "message" we mean, "I, the artist, am passionate about something, and I want to write a song that communicates that," then there's nothing wrong with a song with a "message" -- i.e., a song that is communicating what the artist means to communicate. Music has been full of messages for hundreds of years. When Bach wrote "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring," he obviously meant to communicate that Jesus was important not only to him, but to mankind. Is anybody ripping on Bach for that message? Is anybody ripping on the Wesleys or Fanny Crosby or Martin Luther for writing great hymns?<BR/><BR/>Taking it a step further, I seem to recall a few rock songs through the years that had messages. "I wanna hold your hand/get laid/get high/get stoned/get drunk/get rich/get whatever." Are those songs with a "message"? Again, depends on how you define it.<BR/><BR/>Hip-hop/rap is often criticized for "sending the wrong message" to society -- that it's all about the bling and the ho's and bitches, that's it's too misogynous, etc. If hip-hop is sending a "message," does that make it all bad?<BR/><BR/>My aim here is not to defend Lang, but to keep us all (including me) on our toes in our assessments of music. If a Christian sings about what matters to him/her, I don't see how that's much different than *anybody* singing about what matters to him/her. What matters, are they doing it well, musically and lyrically. If they're not doing it well, I don't care how important the cause or how passionate they are -- the poor quality should be criticized. Amen.<BR/><BR/>I just saw Bonnie Raitt interviewed on CNN. I missed part of the interview, but she was talking about a benefit concert for breast cancer, and how she's lost some friends (maybe her mom? I missed that part) to the illness. She said she's written some songs about it, and that she wants to "get the word out" and "increase awareness" about breast cancer, to get more people to contribute to cancer research. That's clearly "message" stuff. Is that wrong? Even if she writes a great song about it?<BR/><BR/>I recently led a missions trip to Africa as part of our church's AIDS ministry. We worked closely with people who are dying of AIDS, we worked on a hospital, we saw the "global crisis" up close and personal. It was gut-wrenching, life-changing. But you know what started it all, my passion for making a difference in the HIV/AIDS pandemic? Bono. He said some things -- yes, even in songs -- that had a message: Get off your asses and do something about this. Between Bono's "message" and Scripture's exhortations to care for the "orphan and the widow," that's exactly what I did, and I am very involved in the fight. And a musician --and music -- with a "message" was a huge part of that.<BR/><BR/>So I'm reluctant to "shoot the messenger," and just make a blanket statement that "message" music is all bad. I know what Andy's saying -- "agenda" can, and sometimes does, outweigh art, and that's a problem -- but it's not quite so cut-and-dried.<BR/><BR/>Finally, a personal note for Jeffrey and Andy, but I don't mind if others read it. A lot of people read the things we write. Our readers consider us the "experts" who know our business, and we all need to take that responsibility seriously. So, when any of us criticize something, a bunch of our readers are certainly thinking, "Yeah, man, tell it like it is!" Or, "If Andy/Jeffrey/Mark wrote it, it must be true." And so on. So, when one or more of us criticizes "the Christian press" in general, or makes some specific allegations about "Christian press" reactions to Lang's new album (allegations that Andy has admitted were premature, but they *may* come to fruition in the next few days, as more reviews post -- but we need to watch the secular reviews too, because if they're digging the new album, it weakens the argument *a bit*), readers listen. (How was THAT for a run-on sentence?) Many readers assume it's *true.* It's my experience that readers don't generally tend to "fact-check." If I write something, they take my word for it. Same for you guys. So, when any of us criticize "the Christian press" in general, readers buy it. And here I am, a member of "the Christian press," and I'm thinking, "Hold on a sec. There ARE some of us who are doing it right." I know you guys have said that all along, but again, the readers' tendency is to take a general statement and run with it. You say "most" of the Christian press, the reader often walks away thinking "all" of the Christian press. You know it's true.<BR/><BR/>You both know how readers can take anything we say and run with it -- often way off the mark. At Christianity Today Movies, for example, we gave positive reviews to "Brokeback Mountain" and to "Vera Drake," and we were inundated with e-mails, saying that we can't be "Christian" because we're "endorsing" homosexuality ("Brokeback") and abortion ("Drake"). Many readers didn't hesitate to tell us we were going to hell.<BR/><BR/>Now, it's easy to discount *those* readers, because they're obviously not thinking clearly (or for themselves). But the point is this: Readers take what we say and run with it, even to extremes. If one of us says the Christian press is drooling all over Lang's new album solely because he's now one of us, the readers will assume it's fact -- and most won't check up on it for themselves.<BR/><BR/>That's all I'm saying. As *legitimate* members of the media, all three of us need to be careful about what we say, because readers assume it's the, ahem, gospel truth.<BR/><BR/>On another note, I want to back up to something Andy said a few posts ago: I totally agree with Andy that Jeffrey Overstreet's Looking Closer website rocks. I have learned much from Jeffrey in working with him for the last few years. I love the way he looks at art, picking it apart, and finding, as his website motto states, "beauty and meaning in the arts." I don't think there are many Christian writers/journalists who do that better than Jeffrey, and I'm dang proud that he's on our team at ChristianityTodayMovies.com. He rocks. Read his work, and be edified -- and that includes his new book coming in a few months.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I'm glad I dove into this discussion. It's been helpful and stimulating for my own thinking, as I hope it has been for Andy and Jeffrey and everybody who's reading it. It's been uncomfortable at times (as one recent comment noted), but discomfort keeps us on our toes. We are three of the "good" journalists -- none of us is "the enemy"! -- so it's been especially fun to have this conversation with some of the good guys, guys who are doing it right. Kudos to you all, and keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>And for those who were unfamiliar with our websites before I jumped in, I invite you to come check us out:<BR/><BR/>ChristianityTodayMovies.com<BR/>ChristianMusicToday.com<BR/><BR/>peace,<BR/><BR/>mmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158439663686519982006-09-16T16:47:00.000-04:002006-09-16T16:47:00.000-04:00Again, Dan, I think you're way off on this one. I...Again, Dan, I think you're way off on this one. I don't mean to be rude, but if it bothers you so much, feel free not to read. But my conscience is clear, I think this has been a good and valuable discussion, and I'm not at all sorry that it's happened.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158439283692488562006-09-16T16:41:00.000-04:002006-09-16T16:41:00.000-04:00Ok, got it, Lang is just the whipping boy. And hey...Ok, got it, Lang is just the whipping boy. And hey, what's a little colaterial damage when there are points to be made.danthresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519939413038295776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158431870474572592006-09-16T14:37:00.000-04:002006-09-16T14:37:00.000-04:00"Have any of you listened to this record yet? If n..."Have any of you listened to this record yet? If not, how can you offer your opinion? Based on some other reviews words?"<BR/><BR/>Because this thread is not about Jonny Lang's album, but about the way Christian critics write reviews.<BR/><BR/>"1. Don't take yourself too seriously."<BR/><BR/>Thanks. Okay.<BR/><BR/>2. Is there anything on this thread that you wouldn't want Jonny Lang to read?"<BR/><BR/>No.<BR/><BR/>"If so, why don't you delete it."<BR/><BR/>Why?<BR/><BR/>I'm not with you at all on this one, Dan.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158429928515153952006-09-16T14:05:00.000-04:002006-09-16T14:05:00.000-04:00Have any of you listened to this record yet? If no...Have any of you listened to this record yet? If not, how can you offer your opinion? Based on some other reviews words?<BR/><BR/>I've watched this thread and post like a car wreck. I'm sure there are some valid points in here but it comes off like a christian music critic dick swinging contest. <BR/><BR/>Some words of advice: <BR/><BR/>1. Don't take yourself too seriously.<BR/><BR/>2. Is there anything on this thread that you wouldn't want Jonny Lang to read? If so, why don't you delete it.danthresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519939413038295776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158417424043697322006-09-16T10:37:00.000-04:002006-09-16T10:37:00.000-04:00Mark wrote:"The next sentence says "let's cross ou...Mark wrote:<BR/><BR/>"The next sentence says "let's cross our fingers that Lang continues to produce quality music with a stellar message." It does NOT say it's "quality" music BECAUSE of a "stellar message" -- or because Lang had a dramatic conversion, which isn't even mentioned in this review. One could just as easily say, "Let's cross our fingers that Cockburn (or Springsteen or whomever) continues to produce quality music with a stellar message." If that was written about one of those albums, none of us would blink. But because it's written about Lang's album, the red flags are flying. Huh??"<BR/><BR/>Yep. Sentences like that raise red flags for me. You know why? Because I am automatically suspicous of reviews that trumpet "the message," whatever that message may be. I am not particularly interested in music with a message, usually because the message overwhelms the art, and frequently transforms itself into propaganda, which is the antithesis of art. It's true of much Christian music. It's true of Steve Earle's hamfisted protest songs. It's true of some of Bruce Cockburn's political anthems, where he loses all sense of the grace and mystery that pervades much of his Christian writing and rams his leftist views down our throats. I love Bruce Cockburn, but he's recorded some dreadful songs because he loses sight of art and raises his voice in service to "the message."<BR/><BR/>So yes, I'm not impressed by Christian reviews that focus on the message.<BR/><BR/>I've now read about ten reviews, all from Christian sources, that have quoted approvingly from the lyrics to "Only a Man," a song that appears on "Turn Around." Here are some of those lyrics:<BR/><BR/>"I grew up singing songs in church, with questions in my mind<BR/>And turned my back and ran away, from God who gave me life<BR/>Then one night his presence fell, <BR/>I wept and shook and then I fell down and cried "Dear Jesus rescue me again, I understand,<BR/>I am only a man"<BR/><BR/>One review refers to the "profound intimacy" of these lyrics. Another refers to the song's "deeply personal lyrical depth." Sorry, but I don't think these are very good lyrics, although they certainly communicate a message. From a Hallmark standpoint, they're lame. He rhymes "mind" and "life." He rhymes "fell" and "fell." Hell, what happened to "well" and "sell"? He could have even gone with "muscatel" to tie in his former reprobate life. Jonny needs to invest in a good rhyming dictionary, because what he's given us is lousy writing. <BR/><BR/>And this, to me, is evidence that some Christian music sites (I won't say "press") are blinded by the message, and are willing to overlook the aesthetic elements of the music that should not be overlooked.<BR/><BR/>And it also explains why that review at amazon.com (which, I submit, may be more familiar to readers than, say, The Atlantic City Weekly) refers to "heavy-handed lyrics." It sure looks that way to me. The allmusic.com review I linked to (which was there yesterday; I don't know why it's not there now) was written by Thom Jurek. Thom is a Christian, and he gave the album a mediocre review. I know him as a fair and insightful writer, and I've read his reviews for many years, so I suppose I'm more likely to trust his judgment. But it certainly bothers me that Christian music sites are essentially reprinting a breathless press release and treating it as an album review. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're simply naive, and don't know that publicists are paid to make their clients look good. <BR/><BR/>But it's the kind of evidence I've been talking about, Mark. For whatever reasons, there is a tendency for some Christian writers to throw objectivity and critical judgment out the window when writing about new, famous musical converts to the faith. <BR/><BR/>Note that I'm certainly not accusing you of doing that, and I've appreciated your many helpful comments and criticisms in this thread. I believe you when you state that you evaulate the music on its own merits. But I don't think that's true for all of your colleagues. Unfortunately, I see plenty of evidence that suggests to me that the message trumps every other consideration.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158385635786894622006-09-16T01:47:00.000-04:002006-09-16T01:47:00.000-04:00I am also "dismayed" that sites publish press rele...I am also "dismayed" that sites publish press releases disguised as "news" or as their own content. I don't think that the mere *practice* of running a press release is incorrect, as long as it's clearly identified as such. But when it's presented as "our" content, that's lame. (Also, I don't want to read too much into it, but Jeffrey referred to such examples as "Christian music sites," and not as "the Christian press." And usually, there IS a difference. There are a lot of "music sites" -- Christian and otherwise -- out there that hardly qualify as "the press," but are more just promotional/fanboy stuff.) <BR/><BR/>As for earlier posts, it looks like Jeffrey and Andy are trying really hard to "prove" a point that I thought, based on one of Andy's earlier postings, was dead.<BR/><BR/>Jeffrey has pointed to three "reviews" from the "Christian press" that are, as Andy puts it, "salivating" over Lang's new album. And Andy has pointed to two "reviews" (I'm using the word in quotes intentionally) that are "much more restrained," as he puts it.<BR/><BR/>Of course, both Jeffrey and Andy seem to be working from the assumption that if *anybody* in the Christian press likes the album, it *must* be primarily, if not solely, because Lang is now "one of us" and singing about Jesus. Neither seems open the possibility that a member of the Christian media is lauding the album for *other* reasons. They just both seem keen to prove Andy's original point -- which Andy has since said was unfounded, after all.<BR/><BR/>Let's take a closer look at each "review" cited:<BR/><BR/>Jeffrey linked to one at "infuzemag.com," but did not quote it (presumably because nothing in the review supported the "case" against Lang). That particular review made a lot of *observations* about the album, but didn't really get into any *assessments* until the last paragraph, which reads in part:<BR/><BR/>". . . the discriminating music listener who likes to see growth, progression, and innovation for an artist will also have some things to be happy about here with Lang's new touches of soul and R&B. With the album poised to release in both mainstream and Christian markets, let's cross our fingers and hope that Lang continues to produce quality music with a stellar message."<BR/><BR/>OK, so infuze says the discriminating listener will appreciate Lang's new touches of soul and R&B. Nothing there about "this is great because he's now a Christian." The next sentence says "let's cross our fingers that Lang continues to produce quality music with a stellar message." It does NOT say it's "quality" music BECAUSE of a "stellar message" -- or because Lang had a dramatic conversion, which isn't even mentioned in this review. One could just as easily say, "Let's cross our fingers that Cockburn (or Springsteen or whomever) continues to produce quality music with a stellar message." If that was written about one of those albums, none of us would blink. But because it's written about Lang's album, the red flags are flying. Huh??<BR/><BR/>So, the infuze review does not support the original premise.<BR/><BR/>Jeffrey also linked to a CCM review, which he also didn't quote, presumably because it also doesn't support the premise. Unfortunately, CCM doesn't give the full review (or the accompanying letter grade) in this online teaser, so we'll have to wait for the print edition to see the total verdict. But in this particular posting from CCM, there's nary a word about them liking the album merely because Lang is a Christian. CCM writes:<BR/><BR/>"Beyond Lang's broadening as a guitarist, and, perhaps, more crucial to this record, is his emergence as a convincing and multi-faceted singer. He covers an enormous amount of territory on this record; his voice bends, stretches, whispers, growls and soars with a conviction that leaps out of the speakers. Stripped down ballads “Only a Man,” “Last Goodbye” and “That Great Day” lay bare the hushed emotion of Lang’s voice with a vulnerability that would have been hard to imagine a decade ago hearing the bombastic hit “Lie to Me.” "<BR/><BR/>That all reads like a straightforward assessment of the music and his vocal quality. Doesn't matter if you agree with their assessment or not. The point is that there's nothing there about, "This is great because Jonny is now one of us."<BR/><BR/>So, the CCM review (at least the part they've printed here) does not support the original premise.<BR/><BR/>Now, on to Jeffrey's third link, which he *does* quote, presumably because he thinks those quotes support the premise -- and indeed, they come closer than anything else cited. But even then, it's interesting that this particular "review" includes these words, "But even without the spiritual connections, you'd be hard pressed not to thoroughly dig this extraordinary album from an artist who seems to have found the groove he was made for." Why did they go out of their way to say they like this album regardless of the spiritual content? Are they lying? Have they been "suckered" by Lang's "dramatic conversion," as Andy might say?<BR/><BR/>But more importantly, this particular review is from Suite101.com, which is definitely not "Christian press." It's a self-described "eclectic online magazine" that delves into topics from music (all types) to science to technology to home & garden to food & drink to business & finance. They're similar to "about.com" in that regard -- just a hodgepodge of a little of everything. Definitely not a publication from "the Christian press."<BR/><BR/>On to the two "reviews" to which Andy linked . . . <BR/><BR/>I put "reviews" in quotes because one of them -- at allmusic.com -- doesn't review the album at all, but only gives it a rating of 3 stars (out of 5). That's not a "review." That's merely a rating -- and we have no idea their reasons for it.<BR/><BR/>The other is at amazon.com, and it is indeed "more restrained," noting both positives and negatives about the album. But really, when a new album comes out from *anyone,* how many of us who love music say, "I can't wait to see what AMAZON says about it!" It's not very high on my list, anyway. But it "supports" the initial premise that the mainstream isn't as wowed by this album as the "Christian press," so I presume that's why it was noted.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, it's interesting that neither Jeffrey nor Andy noted any mainstream/secular media reviews that just happen to be "salivating" (Andy's word) over Lang's new album -- and I don't think it's because it's "Christian":<BR/><BR/>Jazzreview.com says:<BR/>"There are 13 delicious blues, neo-soul and good ol' gospel songs on this splendid album. Singer, songwriter and guitar virtuoso Jonny Lang was a childhood wonder kid. Early in his teenage years, he was sharing the stage with Buddy Guy and B.B. King. Lang's debut CD Lie To Me, which was released when he was 15, went platinum. The next year, Wander This World was released and it too went platinum. It won't be long before Turn Around joins those two albums in that stellar class."<BR/>(http://www.jazzreview.com/cd/review-18130.html)<BR/><BR/>The Atlantic City Weekly writes:<BR/>"The overly polished production that homogenized Long Time Coming is gone. Producers Ron Fair, Drew Ramsey and Shannon Sanders achieve a much more organic sound that compliments Lang's gritty style perfectly. Even the most obviously commercial track on the album, an acoustic ballad called “My Love Remains,” bounces along with a fresh, honest energy.<BR/><BR/>"With a collection of songs that allows Lang to revisit his roots, Turn Around proves that the line between gospel and blues is very thin indeed. Long-time fans will delight as Lang's guitar burns sonic holes in the atmosphere on funky tracks like “The Other Side of the Fence” and “Don't Stop (For Anything).”<BR/><BR/>"While Lang's guitar playing sounds more confident than ever, his vocal performance, which runs the gamut from a sweet falsetto to a throaty growl, is a revelation. He credits producers Ramsey and Sanders for his performance."<BR/>(http://www.acweekly.com/view.php?id=4972)<BR/><BR/>We'll probably have to wait till next week, when the album officially releases, to read reviews from Billboard, Rolling Stone, and other biggies. It'll be interesting to hear what the big boys say.<BR/><BR/>But what if it comes to this: What if, in the end, the Christian press in general likes Lang's new album better than the mainstream press? The only thing that proves is that the Christian press likes it better than the mainstream press. It doesn't prove *why.* We can speculate all we want, but until anybody in the Christian media comes out and says this is a great album BECAUSE Lang is now a Christian, it's still just that -- merely speculation.<BR/><BR/>I *thought* this discussion had ended a few posts ago when Andy acknowledged that indeed he had over-generalized in his initial posting. Andy wrote, in response to my post, "I'm guilty of generalizations and probably reading more into the conversion stories than is warranted. And I appreciate your comments that have called me on that. Mmmmm. Crow doesn't taste all that bad, you know?"<BR/><BR/>So what's the point of all this? Why am I investing time in stirring things up here? Simple: I just want people (including myself) to be able look past their (and my own) biases and expectations and be able to see things for what they REALLY are.<BR/><BR/>Andy, Jeffrey and I all agree on the overall point that some of the Christian press lacks objectivity and tends to gush in their reviews, often judging the person more than the music. ("But he's singing for God's glory, and that's all that matters." Not.) All to say, that general point is not what this is all about, because we're all agreed on it: Some of the Christian media is lacking in, shall we say, critical analysis skills. (Of course, so is some of the secular media, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, that's not why I kept coming back to this forum. I kept coming back over the *specific* allegation that "reviews" in the "Christian press" were drooling over Lang primarily because he's now a Christian, and not because they made a critical analysis of the music itself. I just don't see the examples that support that. If we all dig enough, once all the reviews are posted, we will likely be able to find an example that *might* hint at that notion. But until/unless we find that many or most of the Christian press is "salivating" over Lang's new album simply because he's a believer, I think that initial assertion needs to bite the dust. Andy had essentially said as much several postings ago. But now Jeffrey is trying to bring up some "see-I-told-you-so" examples that don't really told you so after all. And Andy has added a couple of his own.<BR/><BR/>And now I've analyzed their examples -- they don't prove the initial point after all -- and added a couple more from the mainstream that say the album rocks. <BR/><BR/>So, can we just all agree that the initial premise is dead -- that Christians are drooling over the album only because Lang is a Christian? Can we let that die?<BR/><BR/>We'll see . . .<BR/><BR/>mmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158354112459160452006-09-15T17:01:00.000-04:002006-09-15T17:01:00.000-04:00Well, I'm a Christian, so of course my writing and...Well, I'm a Christian, so of course my writing and opinions are flawless and excellent.<BR/><BR/>I'M KIDDING. JOKE! JOKE!<BR/><BR/>And wait until you hear my conversion testimony. Then you'll know that my books are prize-worthy.<BR/><BR/>JOKE!Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158352938686894012006-09-15T16:42:00.000-04:002006-09-15T16:42:00.000-04:00Forgive me if I've misattributed any quotes or wor...Forgive me if I've misattributed any quotes or words along the way here. But I'm really dismayed to see press releases being embraced and published as news on Christian music sites.<BR/><BR/>Sorta the way I was recently dismayed to learn that a prominent Christian-press film-review site is now owned by two prominent Hollywood publicists. They're Christians, and they mean well, but whatever their intentions, this sends dangerous messages to readers about what makes something a 'review,' and who we should listen to about what distinguishes something as 'excellent.'Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158351738204282982006-09-15T16:22:00.000-04:002006-09-15T16:22:00.000-04:00"BTW, Jeffrey, I like your site."Yes, indeed. Let ..."BTW, Jeffrey, I like your site."<BR/><BR/>Yes, indeed. Let me interrupt this fine thread for a moment to plug one Mr. Jeffrey Overstreet, writer and thinker. Jeffrey's web site, Looking Closer (http://www.lookingcloser.org/) is a daily stop for me. You should read it. You should buy his books, the first of which (Through a Screen Darkly: Looking Closer at Beauty, Truth, and Evil in the Movies) is due out real soon now. <BR/><BR/>He's an e-friend I've known for years, and one day (when I actually make it out to Seattle, or, less likely, when he ventures to the cultural hotbed that is Columbus, Ohio), I'll get to meet him in person.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158351645776577872006-09-15T16:20:00.000-04:002006-09-15T16:20:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158351136951801772006-09-15T16:12:00.000-04:002006-09-15T16:12:00.000-04:00I hear the CCM press is salivating over the new He...I hear the CCM press is salivating over the new Henry Timrod cd. <BR/><BR/>They're calling him the "new Dylan".<BR/><BR/>Soon as I get in my car I'm going to turn on WCVO and "faithfully" listen.... <BR/><BR/>I can't wait.<BR/><BR/><BR/>BTW, Jeffrey, I like your site.jackscrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16163915446151636189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158349767571819532006-09-15T15:49:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:49:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158349482442400422006-09-15T15:44:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:44:00.000-04:00And just to balance this out a bit, here are links...And just to balance this out a bit, here are links to a couple reviews from non-Christian sources:<BR/><BR/>http://www.amazon.com/Turn-Around-Jonny-Lang/dp/B000H7JDVS<BR/><BR/>and <BR/><BR/>http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:amm1z8ha6yvj<BR/><BR/>I haven't heard the album. I can't say which view is more accurate. But I do find it interesting that the reviews from Christian sources are salivating over this album, while the reviews from non-Christian sources are much more restrained.Andy Whitmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158348924146640102006-09-15T15:35:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:35:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158348571578539852006-09-15T15:29:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:29:00.000-04:00Here's another one:http://christianmusic.suite101....Here's another one:<BR/>http://christianmusic.suite101.com/article.cfm/jonny_lang<BR/><BR/>Here's a quote:<BR/><BR/>"But don’t let all the sizzle let you miss these passionate lyrics: <BR/><BR/><I>Never again will I wander without you/ never again will I offer to you anything less than my very best/ never again now that I understand….. Getting on my knees puts me back on my feet again.</I><BR/><BR/>... <BR/><BR/><I>Turn Around</I> is fourteen songs of generous revelation and joyful exhortation ... given life by Jonny Lang’s stunning guitar chops and passionate vocals. He’s never sounded more committed, more focused, or more sure of his gifting. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it. But even without the spiritual connections, you’d be hard pressed not to thoroughly dig this extraordinary album from an artist who seems to have found the groove he was made for."Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158348180949043602006-09-15T15:23:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:23:00.000-04:00And another:http://www.ccmmagazine.com/reviews/And another:<BR/><BR/>http://www.ccmmagazine.com/reviews/Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158348052668103292006-09-15T15:20:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:20:00.000-04:00www.infuzemag.com/reviews/music/Another Christian-...www.infuzemag.com/reviews/music/<BR/><BR/>Another Christian-press rave for this album.Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158347985459236652006-09-15T15:19:00.000-04:002006-09-15T15:19:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158346574286465652006-09-15T14:56:00.000-04:002006-09-15T14:56:00.000-04:00Andy,When you go to post a comment, look at the li...Andy,<BR/><BR/>When you go to post a comment, look at the list of comments running down the left side of the page. If you've signed in to Blogger, you should see a little trash can icon down by the date and time of each comment. If you click on that icon under an offensive message, you'll delete that comment WITHOUT deleting any of the others.<BR/><BR/>And in this case, I doubt anybody will object, except the fellow who posted that juvenile outburst.Jeffrey Overstreethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14715376140228118442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158344053177113862006-09-15T14:14:00.000-04:002006-09-15T14:14:00.000-04:00Some replies . . . Jackscrow: I hear ya on "CCM" a...Some replies . . . <BR/><BR/>Jackscrow: I hear ya on "CCM" artists, and I agree that the words "CCM" and "Christian" are not synonymous . . . No need to tell me what to think . . . As for "good vs. great," yes there are *general* standards, as you put it, and yes, it's usually easy to tell the difference between good and bad. But that wasn't the discussion. The discussion was the fine line between "good and great," and that IS a subjective line -- though you apparently know exactly where it is. Congrats . . . And yes, most of the CCM stuff I hear these days is cliched. And no, I don't have time to get into a dissection of the songwriting of Sara Groves vs. Cheryl Wheeler or Haseltine vs. Cockburn. Such a dissection can only be subjective, anyway . . . <BR/><BR/>Andy: I'm not sure there's any more to be said about Lang either. The only reason I jumped into this conversation in the first place was a reaction to the generalizations -- that "the Christian media" is drooling over Lang's new album simply because the "pagan had become one of us" . . . and I couldn't find any evidence of that, anywhere. A lot of people read you and respect your opinion. A lot of people think, "If Andy says the Christian media are drooling over Lang's new album just because he's a Christian, and not in regard to the quality of the album," then a lot of people will simply believe what you say and not investigate for themselves. That's all this was about. Your *overall* observations of trends were fine, but you were lacking in "ammunition" on the Lang thing. And hey, I totally know what crow tastes like. Been there, done that more times than I can count!<BR/><BR/>As for the larger issues of the evangelical culture "fostering sensationalism" with stories like Lang's conversion, it's hard to know how to reply. We JUST interviewed Lang, and he told the story the same way I've heard it before -- a very dramatic conversion story. I can't relate to it, because God has never dealt with me anything remotely like that. But I can't deny Lang HIS story, either. When we interviewed him (that story will post on 9/25, BTW), he was actually apologetic about how preposterous the story was. He even said something like, "I'm hesitant to share this story with the media, because people will think I'm insane." Well, nobody wants to look like they're insane; it would be easy of Lang to just say, "Hey, I came to God, I had a change of heart, and that's that."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I do think you're being overly cynical with stories like this -- not just Lang's, but any artist who has a dramatic conversion. I've gotten to know a number of artists over the years, and I've noticed that they tend to experience and feel *everything* more deeply than I ever do. I don't think they all have wild, dramatic conversion stories, but there might be a certain "bent" to the deeply artistic, imaginative, creative, brilliant mind that experiences things more vividly/wildly/whatever than most of us. Sheesh, Van Gogh chopped off his ear. Kurt Cobain felt things so intensely that he killed himself. Mozart was a very passionate, wild and crazy guy who did some wacked-out stuff. And so on. I think it's possible that these types of minds are so in tune with the fantastic, are so seeking the incredible experience, that perhaps it's possible the only way God can get through to them is through something wild, instead of something mundane. God reached me through the mundane: A friend told me about Jesus, and it made sense, and I made a decision, and have stumbled awkardly through the faith journey ever since. No flashes of lightning, no miraculous leaving of sinful things behind. Just a typical journey. It's possible that the Jonny Langs and John Davises of the world wouldn't even *hear* God in a mundane, run-of-the-mill manifestation. I dunno. Just a theory.<BR/><BR/>Do I believe it's *possible* that some stories are trumped up for the sake of publicity? Yep. But I don't think that explains every case.<BR/><BR/>Like you, I also think the music should be "sufficient in the CCM world." But great music is often rooted in great stories. Cockburn has a couple of war protest songs on the new album. If I were to interview him, you bet I'd ask him about the stories behind those songs. What if he said, "Well, my brother-in-law was killed in Iraq, and I'm mad as hell about that, and I even went and pissed on the White House lawn and yelled profanities at the President!" Should I say, "Um, that's fine, Bruce, but I just want to hear about the MUSIC, not your stupid dramatic story. Tell me about the melody and what the bass player did and what knobs the producer fiddled with on that song." Uh, not. All I'm saying is that the music IS sufficient, but people want to know what's behind it too.<BR/><BR/>As for Lang, if he starts singing about Jesus from out of nowhere, of course it's legitimate to ask him why he's doing that. Yes, the quality of his album should be judged on the music alone, and NOT on whether he had a dramatic or a mundane conversion. No arguments from me. (But you HAD implied, in your first posting, that that's exactly what the Christian media is doing -- and again, I don't see that anywhere. But I digress.) No one is asking you to "factor in supernatural quaking" in evaluating the album. What makes you think anybody is asking that?<BR/><BR/>When Springsteen's latest album arrived, the press kit mentioned all the motivations behind hit -- Springsteen's love of Americana, of Seeger, of folk songs. But it also told some stories of things that have riled him up, good or bad -- Hurricane Katrina, the war in Iraq, etc. Should I have gotten ticked at Columbia for thinking they were trying to manipulate my assessment of the album, just because the press release shared some of the drama behind the music? Nah, that's just what publicists do. I don't see how we can fault Lang's publicists for saying he had a dramatic conversion, especially since it's essentially a gospel album!<BR/><BR/>And yes, it's very possible that Lang and Davis and anybody who comes to Christ can make bad albums. Goodness, I have bad albums cross my desk every single day!<BR/><BR/>If there is "enormous pressure in the CCM world to talk about miraculous deliverances instead of the third-rate Muddy Waters imitation," I can only speak for myself and for our publication. We ain't feelin' no pressure. Publicists can spin us any way they like, but we're writing our stories and our reviews the way WE want to. And anyway, what's "pressure"? Pressure is perceived, not necessarily just applie. Some people can go to the free throw line with no time on the clock and the game on the line and not feel a thing; others choke. When we get a cover letter from a publicist pitching an angle, perhaps the publicist intends to apply pressure, but I sure don't feel it. One journalist may feel it (though I'd have to question the word "journalist," in that case), while another will not. All to say, if there is "pressure," where's it coming from? The publicists? Depends on how you take it. Are you really feeling "pressure" to give Lang a good review because he fell on the ground when he came to God? From whom?<BR/><BR/>For the record, Jonny Lang's dramatic conversion will have absolutely nothing with how we assess his new record. However, how he expresses his faith *in the music* might be part of our review. We hear a lot of albums that *sound* good, but the lyrics stink. We have had to slam a ton of records because they're full of Christian platitudes and cliches. We'll assess Lang's new CD the same way -- musically and lyrically. If we think he's a third-rate Muddy Waters, we'll say so. If we think he's Muddy reincarnated, we'll say so. But we'll factor his lyrical agility (or lack thereof) into the total assessment as well. Not his dramatic conversion, but how he is conveying his message (whether it's faith or not) through his lyrics. Simple as that. Any good reviewer should do that.<BR/><BR/>Glad you wanted my input. Glad to provide it. But I'm so buried, I probably won't be able to take part in the discussion much more. Hope you understand.<BR/><BR/>Peace to you and all your readers.<BR/><BR/>mark moring<BR/>christianmusictoday.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158324570458332842006-09-15T08:49:00.000-04:002006-09-15T08:49:00.000-04:00Doggone it! Jeffrey should have included Henry Ti...Doggone it! Jeffrey should have included Henry Timrod in his list.<BR/><BR/>Don't think he would have qualified as a CCM artist, though.jackscrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16163915446151636189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1158321962649003612006-09-15T08:06:00.000-04:002006-09-15T08:06:00.000-04:00andy,log into blogger.com and then go to your blog...andy,<BR/><BR/>log into blogger.com and then go to your blog and the comments here. there should be a trashcan that appears next to each comment. you can individually delete comments that way.mghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02279451510520504251noreply@blogger.com