tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post115435815763609151..comments2023-08-10T05:24:20.775-04:00Comments on Razing the Bar: The Church as a Sanctified PlaceAndy Whitmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04010130934552315074noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154383174241688592006-07-31T17:59:00.000-04:002006-07-31T17:59:00.000-04:00"'70s Fleetwood Mac tambourine shaking pop"oh shit..."'70s Fleetwood Mac tambourine shaking pop"<BR/><BR/>oh shit.danthresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519939413038295776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154373940640278772006-07-31T15:25:00.000-04:002006-07-31T15:25:00.000-04:00One thing I'd add about the nature of performance....One thing I'd add about the nature of performance. I'd agree, Andy that performance is inevitable; in a liturgical service this isn't a problem, since it's the church itself, in participation with the priest, that does the performing. <BR/><BR/>In my own Anglican tradition there's very little staring up at a stage waiting for the next act. There's just no time. The parishioners are too busy reciting the Nicene Creed, the Lord's Prayer, The Prayer of Humble Access, the Prayer of Confession, the Prayer of Thanksgiving, The gradual (Psalms), the responsive prayers and responding to the readings ("Thanks be to God," "Glory to thee, Oh Christ," "Praise to You, Lord Christ"). <BR/><BR/>One of the best ways to overcome the problem of performance is to make the church members the performers; God becomes the audience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154373137257482082006-07-31T15:12:00.000-04:002006-07-31T15:12:00.000-04:00Andy, you seem to be implying that liturgical and ...Andy, you seem to be implying that liturgical and contemporary services differ mainly in matters of aesthetics. I'd say this misunderstands the character of authentic Eucharistic liturgy. If you're Roman, Anglican or Eastern Orthodox, the pomp surrounding the liturgy has less to do with aesthetic choice than it does with the idea that Christ is really present in the Eucharist, and that the sacraments contain an inward grace. <BR/><BR/>A liturgical service is not about making me feel a certain way, but it is about guiding me through a worship act whose gravity and beauty is appropriate to the moment. Christ is really present, and I should behave a certain way no matter how "connected" or "relevant" I feel.<BR/><BR/>Think about the last time you were in a courtroom. Everyone rises, the judge is attired a certain way, says certain things at certain times. This is appropriate. We're not going to see judges handing out death sentences from a picnic table in a gym anytime soon, and we'd protest if we ever did. The law is a weighty matter, and the forms with which we administrate it should reflect that gravity.<BR/><BR/>It's the same with liturgy. <BR/><BR/>One interesting tendency I've noticed over the years is that when I bring someone from a real, working rock band to a liturgical service, there's generally been a genuine appreciation of the liturgy, with its formal, reverent music and quietude. A good liturgical service done by an able liturgist doesn't lack for drumset. God made Saturday night and Sunday morning, and (Thanks be to God) He gave us music appropriate for both. <BR/><BR/>Six days of the week tend to be "horizontal" in orientation, and those of us who embrace a fully Incarnational Christianity know that 's a very good thing. There's nothing "unspiritual" about the horizontal. For God to have manifested Himself in a physical body was the most "horizontal" gesture ever made. There is a time to Rock. Rock affirms that we have bodies and live in Time and that God created both and both are Good. But for me that gives the the "vertical" orientation of Sunday all the more signifigance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154370794995187132006-07-31T14:33:00.000-04:002006-07-31T14:33:00.000-04:00I disagree!:)I would say that the question of whet...I disagree!<BR/>:)<BR/>I would say that the question of whether or not the sanctuary is particularly sacred is quite a different one from whether some music styles aren't okay to use in worship. <BR/><BR/>As to whether the sanctuary is sanctified any more than other parts of the world, we are no longer under the old covenant. Nowadays, "the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands" (Acts 7:48a). Rather, Christians through faith have access to God at all times, not just in a building: "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?" (1 Cor 6:19) <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how we can claim that the whole world is sanctified, Andy, unless you mean this in an abstract or poetic sense. Could be that I misunderstand you. But believers are the only truly sanctified part of creation: "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)<BR/><BR/>Mark, why does the fact that God is everywhere and "everytime" mean that places and times are sacred? This sounds a bit like pantheism. <BR/><BR/>Even if the church building were some specially sanctified place, I don't see that informing to a great extent how we make our decisions about worship or service format.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07809327875741127023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154368603213634532006-07-31T13:56:00.000-04:002006-07-31T13:56:00.000-04:00good thoughts andy.i definitely agree with your po...good thoughts andy.<BR/><BR/>i definitely agree with your points.<BR/><BR/>i personally try to keep the performance aspect of it to a minimum, although if you stick someone on stage with a guitar -- you've got a performance. although i try to not draw attention to myself. <BR/><BR/>i've noticed personally that certain musical styles (extended jamming, techno-electronica beats)have caused people to stop worshipping and start paying attention to the person up there playing music. i'm not sure if it is because it is something that they aren't used to or not? that is definitely not to say that those forms of music should not be used in church -- they should. hopefully there are congregations that totally engage in those settings...the ones that i've lead in so far have not.<BR/><BR/>but yeah, good stuff.mghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02279451510520504251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154363386626147952006-07-31T12:29:00.000-04:002006-07-31T12:29:00.000-04:00When dealing with the issue of sacred time or sacr...When dealing with the issue of sacred time or sacred space, you have to ask the question, what makes them sacred? The only reasonalble answer I can think of is God's presence makes them sacred. Now, since God is everywhere and "everytime", that means every space and time is sacred.Mark K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00779814057753940030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9991864.post-1154358297144959702006-07-31T11:04:00.000-04:002006-07-31T11:04:00.000-04:00I agree!I agree!sitsonchairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16632828313903796739noreply@blogger.com